6 color experiences

gerard

Vendredi 20 Mars 2009

Notez [Ignorer]

Hello KeeConsultants,
I need your advices about Stochastic Screening and Hexachromie (6 colors separations and printing).
Non Periodic Screening:
Did you already use the new PSO NPS profiles and did you set TVI with the recommended F curve?
Or did you use other settings?
What are the results?
Hexachromie
One of my (soon) PSO certified customer is printing Painting samples and brochures for different brands sold in stores.
His (English) competitors are printing some of these brochures using a 6 colors hexachromie (not Pantone Hexachrome) presse (CMYK + Orange and Green).
We should not have any problem to setup the presse as long as we find the right inks (O + G) and the correct solid and TVI values.
I should be able to build a correct 6 colors ICC profile (with Monaco Profiler).
We are using CMYK Optimizer in the workflow to normalize the RGB and CMYK files.
But what is the solution with 6 color profiles?
Any insight or ideas will be interresting to experiment with this customer. I will document our tests and make them available for you
Best regards

Gerard Niemetzky

Bonjour KeeConsultants,
Je me tourne vers vous pour savoir quelle expérience vous avez, d’une part en ce qui concerne les trames aléatoires, d’autres part l’impression en séparations avec 6 couleurs (hexachromie).
Avez vous déjà des clients qui utilisent les nouveaux profils PSO NojnPeriodic Screening? Avec quelle courbe d’engraissement (courbe F préconisée pour ces profils?
Guy à l’Ugra me dit que des imprimeurs Suisses n’y ont vu aucun intérêt et impriment comme avec une trame 175 (même profil ISOcoated et courbes A +B pour l’engraissement).
Un de mes clients (Gueutier à Rennes) imprime des nuanciers pour peintures, et se trouve confronté à une concurrence Anglaise qui imprime en Hexachromie.
Donc après sa certification PSO (6 et 7 Avril) il désire que je mette en place ce qui est nécessaire pour une impression Hexachromie sur sa presse 6 couleurs ainsi qu’au prépresse.
Sur la presse, avec trame aléatoire, je ne devrais pas avoir de problème à caler le système en CMYK + Orangé et Vert (je dois trouver les valeurs Lab optimales et les courbes d’engraissement pour ces deux couleurs).
Une fois cela réalisé je pourrais créer un profil ICC personnalisé de leur presse en 6 couleurs.
Se pose alors le problème de l’utilisation de ce profil.
Avec quoi faire les séparations (RVB ou Lab vers CMYKOG) ? Ils ont CMYK Optimizer pour le normalisation dans leur flux, mais CMYK Opt ne prend pas les profils Hexa!
Merci de votre aide et de votre feedback.
J’ai à ma disposition avec cet imprimeur un champ d’expérimentation qui va nous donner, à tous, des éléments que je documenterais pour les rendre disponibles chez d’autres clients.
Cordialement

Gérard Niemetzky

Jan-Peter Homann

Vendredi 20 Mars 2009

Notez [Ignorer]

Hello gerard,
I currently have problems with my KEE account too send e-mails. So I send ths mail from my normal account:

nearly all printers I know printing stochastic, are trying to compensate CtP for a visual match of FOGRA39.

Concerning Printing with additional colors I had a testrun with an CMYK + orange.
Preparing the test run I talked with X-Rite, and they recommended Profilemaker instead of Monaco Profiler.

The orange we used for the testprint was not a special orange for multicolor (probably high opacitay / low transparency)
The result of using this orange was a colorgamut with a spike in the orange area.

The colorgamut in the red area has not been expanded, as I expected. I recommend very early contacting ink vendors to talk about orange ink with optimal opacatiy / transparency for multicolor printing.

If you are interested on high-gamut printing with CMYK, I recommend to have a look at Toyo / Kaleido. They use an extreme saturated an more bluish magenta.
This results in the magenta, violett blue area in a gamut-expansion comparable to Epson x880 printers.

Also Kaleido Cyan and Yellow are higher pigmented than traditional ISO 2846 inks.

Concerning PDF workflow I would first ask Elie, if Alwan plan to support multicolor profiles as output intents in a 'hypothetical Alwan MulticolorOptimizer' ;-)

As current available PDF-solution, I know colorlogic ZePrA. The Multicolor profile is specified as destination profile and all RGB / Lab Content (Image and vector) will be separated to DeviceN objects having
the same name like the multicolor channel names of the profile.

Also Kodak offers Multicolor support for Prinergy, but this option is quite expensive.

Regards
Jan-Peter

Supree

Lundi 23 Mars 2009

Notez [Ignorer]

Hello gerard,

I normally did like Jan-Peter, Match TVI of Stochastic screen (Also apply to Hybrid screen) to Curve A and B like in FOGRA39. Because most of my customer use FOGRA39 as their working space. One missing point is we may not take some color advantage of Stochastic screen.

For Hexachrome, I have PM5 packaging that can create Multicolor profile directly and GoP technology which can edit in individual channel.
After profile done, you may have two way to do a separation :
1. Using PM muticolor Plugin for Photoshop but it can use only CS2
2. You can use Photoshop CS4, It can support Multichannel profile already. You can find it in Edit>Convert to profile and Advance. Mutichannel profile will appear in this dialogue.
I thought you use a Pantone Hexachrome certified ink and Hexachore profile from Pantone.

I also use TVI Curve A and B to control process (CMYOG match to Curve A and K for Curve)

Regards,

Supree

GERARD NIEMETZKY

Lundi 23 Mars 2009

Notez [Ignorer]

Thank you Supree,

With this printer, we need to take fully advantage of Stochastic screening before we can use 6 inks instead of 4.
They are printing paint samples and brochures, and they need precision in highlghts (suddle colors), and a large gamut.

Best regards

Gerard

Andreas Leveke

Lundi 23 Mars 2009

Notez [Ignorer]

Hi Gerad,

PSO_NP-production.
I could standardize customers according to ISO “PSO_NP_coated” meanwhile.
e.g.Printing-maschine (manroland direct drive) brand new.
Printing ink: sun chemical “PSO-exact” (perfect results, even in tertier color)
Printing substrat: PT2 (PSO)
Step1.
CTP-Linearisation-Table (rip- Prinergy) with “spectro-Plate ALL vision” (I bought me a new one)
step2.
Press: Linear print to set up printing standards (wet/dry density, Lab values and...)
step3.
reading the dot-gain from linear print.
I was wondering without a dotgain press-curve (=linear-print) the dotgain was around 68% on 40% dig.(ISO-curve-F) from beginning.
So, no other press-curve was neccessary in this szenario.
step4.
The customer is working with CMYK-opimizer (I could sell my first eco-version)
In their colorflow the printing-data were transformed to “PSO_NP_coated...” in this szenar.
The quality is absolut perfect and close 1:1 compared to PSO ISOv2. 175lpi (ISO-curve-A) 53% on 40% dig)
I was working with a roman16-printing-testform.
Proofing GMG according to .mx4 “PSO_NP_coated...”

Hexa-production:
Here I could support a customer in the way like Supree was writing.
PM 5 is very good in multichannel, even the “GOP”- function-to edit individual
Proofing
The customer is working with GMG. Up from version 4. you can use the same multichannel-profiles in GMG here with the ICC workflow.
calibration with “__,mx3” -> characterise the outpunt (new ICC) -> an the GMG-profile is the same “__.mx3”.
The color transformation in the ICC-Setup. Source-profile: the multichannnel: Printer-profile: the new “full-gamut” Proofer-profile.
As you know; some colors depending of the model are even with this way out of gamut but much better then other techniques
In PM5 edit; compare icc-gamut proofer device to icc-multichannel hexa, then you now even the limits in proofing.
softproofing:
The plug in “multichannel” in photoshop is the tool Iam working with. I have very good experience herewith.
To control the images in prepress convert the multichannel-data (dcs) into the RGB-workingspace,
then you can make an “softproof” controlled correction in RGB and convert back with this tool in the printing-data (e.g Hexa)
In PM5 edit; compare icc-gamut monitor device to icc-multichannel hexa, then you now even the limits in soft-proofing.

regards Andreas

donaldjeo

Lundi 29 Mars 2010

Notez [Ignorer]

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Hans Hengeveld

Vendredi 2 Avril 2010

Notez [Ignorer]

Hy Gerard,

We are experts in wide-gamut printing, we have experience in Hexachrome, Opaltone and more projects with additional colors
Please look at Kaleido, we have tested it, made profiles with Profilemaker and get some great results.
With these inks you can work in 4 colors which almost reach the Adobe-RGB colorspace.
We work with the 16 bits RGB files until the final stage in Prepress because there is almost zero lost when converting to the Kaleido colorspace.
We are not satisfied with ISO-Coated, the colors are to much grey'd out.
Perfect for projects where color must be perfect.

kate

Vendredi 28 Mai 2010

Notez [Ignorer]

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6 color experiences